Great piece, Rob. Did they go through the jungle training school that my grandfather set up I wonder? Am guessing some did. Great subject, not enough written about it, glad you atee both rectifying that!
An important training ground for Australian participants in Vietnam. Thinking particularly of Major H Smith at Long Tan. By that time Owen guns were out of favour, and Smith recommended their removal from TOE.
Chris, yes good point. Key in jungle warfare was having plenty of lead flying towards the bad guys, and submachine guns - like the Sten and Owen - simply didn't have stopping power. This was a key lesson from Burma, which saw a massive increase in Bren guns in 1944 (although Tommy guns remained popular as their .45 slug would stop a bullock at close quarters). Forsdike describes 2Lt John Starling being hit in the face by two 9mm rounds from a Sten, and only suffering grazes. Beyond 100 yards, the 9mm stopping power is virtually nil (and the ammo the MCP insurgents were using was old, delivered to Malaya in 1944/5). John Cross describes Brens as being ideal in jungle warfare (as opposed to British GPMG or American M60) because their rounds were in magazines rather than in link.
Indeed Belts are an issue. Although Major Smith had used Vickers as a cadet at school and said that he wished he had had them at Long Tan! The reason being the M60 ammunition was carried as belts wrapped around the troops Rambo style, whereas Vickers ammunition came in nice clean ammo boxes. Smith reported that some M60 used at Long Tan were reduce to firing single rounds due to jams caused by dirty linked belts. And of course the M60 being based on the MG 42 was obviously inferior to the Bren(!).
Yes! I've fired the Bren and the M60 (and GPMG of course) in my time. I liked the Bren because its magazine size led one to 3-round bursts, whereas it takes real discipline to avoid long bursts on a GPMG/M60. I also agree about dirty links. The other problem is overheating barrels on the latter: it doesn't take long for these to start glowing red, especially in the SF role, which is why the Vickers wins every time for me as a MMG.
One for the wish list
Interesting to see an M2 also. (Full Auto M1 carbine). Again not renowned for its stopping power. Although better than 9mm I believe.
Interesting. Thanks Rob.
Great piece, Rob. Did they go through the jungle training school that my grandfather set up I wonder? Am guessing some did. Great subject, not enough written about it, glad you atee both rectifying that!
They certainly did! Yes, its a subject that does need more attention. Mark Forsdike has done the Suffolk's proud
Reading the obituary today of a Māori who trained them in Jungle tactics.
An important training ground for Australian participants in Vietnam. Thinking particularly of Major H Smith at Long Tan. By that time Owen guns were out of favour, and Smith recommended their removal from TOE.
Chris, yes good point. Key in jungle warfare was having plenty of lead flying towards the bad guys, and submachine guns - like the Sten and Owen - simply didn't have stopping power. This was a key lesson from Burma, which saw a massive increase in Bren guns in 1944 (although Tommy guns remained popular as their .45 slug would stop a bullock at close quarters). Forsdike describes 2Lt John Starling being hit in the face by two 9mm rounds from a Sten, and only suffering grazes. Beyond 100 yards, the 9mm stopping power is virtually nil (and the ammo the MCP insurgents were using was old, delivered to Malaya in 1944/5). John Cross describes Brens as being ideal in jungle warfare (as opposed to British GPMG or American M60) because their rounds were in magazines rather than in link.
Indeed Belts are an issue. Although Major Smith had used Vickers as a cadet at school and said that he wished he had had them at Long Tan! The reason being the M60 ammunition was carried as belts wrapped around the troops Rambo style, whereas Vickers ammunition came in nice clean ammo boxes. Smith reported that some M60 used at Long Tan were reduce to firing single rounds due to jams caused by dirty linked belts. And of course the M60 being based on the MG 42 was obviously inferior to the Bren(!).
Yes! I've fired the Bren and the M60 (and GPMG of course) in my time. I liked the Bren because its magazine size led one to 3-round bursts, whereas it takes real discipline to avoid long bursts on a GPMG/M60. I also agree about dirty links. The other problem is overheating barrels on the latter: it doesn't take long for these to start glowing red, especially in the SF role, which is why the Vickers wins every time for me as a MMG.